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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.03 22:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 03/04/2011 22:28:48
 Originally by: Spiyderr
skills take SOOOOOO LOOOONG to get to lvl 4s in 5s especially on the higher up stuff. It really makes the game a snail race, I can make isk to buy ships and modules way faster then I can skill for them.
Well it's the main reason why I only train sub-battleship skills, I have 25 mil+ SP and I feel a bit the same, I still can only decently fly a few frigates and cruisers.
I think the main reason is to keep people interested. You can see it both as a strength and as a weakness. One the one hand it's nice if you finally get that skill and it keeps people interested longer, on the other hand it apparently means CCP thinks the game content isn't interesting enough to keep people interested for that reason alone.
Also, apparently ISK is far too easy to make so that can't be the bottleneck. I also made billions in my 1st months and I still can't fly half the ships I bought back then.
Well concluded: apparently EVE is a game where it takes 2+ years to decently fly and fit a decent range of ships.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.04 19:47:00 -
[2]
Originally by: lordlulzs
CCP have so many of you under their thumbs, your egos won't even let you see it. :p
It's called cognitive dissonance, quite a well known phenomena.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.05 11:24:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/04/2011 12:27:50
Originally by: Harpalyce Dynameos
Grinding is grinding and grinding = lame. And I agree lvl 4 is sufficient, lvl 5 is all about maximizing gains.
Originally by: Linda Shadowborn
Not at all, NOT having to grind like mad to gain skills is something a lot of us are REALLY happy about and frankly the biggest reason i play this game.
Well what the grinding argument is concerned: define grinding? How do you not grind in EVE?
For instance mining or mission running. We all need to grind our standings to get access to higher lvl agents. If you PvP you have to grind your sec status if you want to have access to highsec. If you want faction stuff you grind LP. If you do WHs you grind ores and sleepers. PI is a repetitious boring activity that no-one in his/her right mind would do if it wasn't profitable. Let alone transporting stuff across 25 systems. Explain to me how all this is not grinding?
The fact that XP/SP acquisition rate isn't connected to it doesn't make it more or less a grind. I don't really see the difference between EVE and most other games, except that you don't get XP for your repetitious activities in EVE. And in games like Guild Wars you can get max level in a weekend.
Next to that I still wonder what's the "great thing" about extreme slow levelling. What's actually against it to have people skill up a bit faster so they can fly more ships and fit them better and can fulfill more roles?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.05 18:44:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/04/2011 18:46:56
Originally by: Harpalyce Dynameos
Monetary gain, invalid, not societal "xp" related
Only if you're heavy into missions, again invalid, for monetary gain
I'll accept it, only because people have some belief they have to have access to empire
For monetary gain again, if not, then merely for bling/edge factor accepted
Monetary/technological gain
Only if you partake in these activities, again monetary gain
Not sure if I understand you .. if something is done for a sense of monetary, technological gain it's suddenly not grind - by definition?! And if you add xp to that gain it's grind by definition?
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But now it's not a requirement now is it? It is however a basic requirement in many other games to partake in the Skinner box to get your perceived rewards .. you wasted 48-72 hours in their Skinner box
I won't deny that most or all other games have a far more linear gameplay. But that doesn't prove or disprove the fact that there's just as much grind in EVE, grind as defined as "a repetitious not very exciting action you wouldn't do if there wasn't any extrinsic reward for doing it".
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Yeah that's a problem... no sense of achievement
Why do you equal SP acquisition with achievement? In my opinion if there's something that isn't an achievement it's SP acquisition as the only thing you do for it is paying subscription.
Doing special or hard or difficult things are achievements. Filling your skillqueue for years isn't.
Originally by: Harpalyce Dynameos
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Next to that I still wonder what's the "great thing" about extreme slow levelling. What's actually against it to have people skill up a bit faster so they can fly more ships and fit them better and can fulfill more roles?
Because other games spoon feed you to think the end-game is all that matters? EVE is alive and players always learn and grow? But I'm just pulling your tail, splitting hairs, and absurdly defining things, gotta defend my baby.
Yes I guess so ... 
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.05 19:14:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 05/04/2011 19:14:36
Originally by: Harpalyce Dynameos
I never said SP had anything to do with achieving anything. But if you can literally hit the ceiling of a game within a weekend, there is no difficulty, no obstacles, nothing that makes worth it other than going "oh now I can has cool armors"
Sorry for that then! Well why not make it faster then if "it hasn't got anything to do with achieveing anything" anyway?
Reaching a cap shouldn't be that important imo, it's what you can do what which is available to you. And the option for that are far bigger and more fun if you're more versatile and not crippled by your lack of SP.
Anyway even if you can fly all the ships in EVE or wear stuff or use skills or craft stuff in other games it doesn't mean you're done. Look at DAoC, where you had territorial warfare or tournaments in GW that opened up areas for your faction or where you could have access to outposts. But even pretty vanity gear is something you could want, what does it matter as long as it's fun? Why is occupying 0.0 and blob warfare necessarily better?
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.05 20:18:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Harpalyce Dynameos
8< snip >8
This is funny, thanks for that! ^^
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.06 04:45:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dr Richard Dawkins
The issues of sov. and supercaps is relatively tanget, all things considered. If they're fixed, great, every capital and supercap have a use in fleet. If not, well, that's one very limited portion of the game that's got a mega-high ceiling of skillpoints. I don't see that as an immidiate threat to the game and it's fairly doubtful that it will ever be unless the majority of the population decided they really wanted to live in sov. null.
But aren't we switching cause and effect here, what's the use even trying to do anything in null because of the endless cap fleets owned by 3+ year old players?
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The endless skill queue isn't so much a challenge to overcome as a series of choices to define your character. Were you to have a much faster skill progression rate or the ability to train up as many characters as you like, that would significantly cheapen the journey.
"Cheapen" as in rl money you pay to subscribe for 2+ years if you want to fly a decent and versatile range of subcapital ships on just 1 character?
For a game I find 2+ years extremely long, it's ridiculous. This isn't university.
Next to that, the journey shouldn't consist out of waiting for skills to finish (after all you don't really learn or experience anything from that) but out of experiencing the diverse aspects of the game and getting to know the ships by flying them.
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Fortunately there is a solution to this in the character bazaar. It's not perfect and you do loose that unique "I made this," feeling from your very own creation.
I basically find a character bazaar unacceptable. Firstly it takes away the RPG part from MMORPG and secondly it's basically legal cheating for a lot of RL money with some profit for CCP in it. If something is un-immersive it's "buying a character". RP wise CCP may as well sell SP for $ ("time flux, suddenly you're 3 months ahead"), at least you keep your character.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.06 21:25:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dr Richard Dawkins
You seem to want an input time = skill reward and i'm saying YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN GET THAT from the bazaar with nothing more than isk you earned in-game.
But I don't want a second hand body, who knows what the previous owner has done with it .. yukkie! -.-
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.04.07 14:28:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 07/04/2011 14:36:03
Originally by: AstarothPrime
Mining = socializing or botting. All our corp miners are talkative bunch, and u can do that far less while pew pewing.
Or train proper skill. Some grinding is neccessary for the most advanced agents but hey.
Do come down to 0sec a little and do some PROPER pvp. Camping unsuspecing noobs who dont actually know where they are going / what they are doing in losec is just shameful.
Or you kill some rats / scan down some anoms preferably in 0sec.
Well the fact that there's alternatives to some grinding activities, saying "but hey" or that you can combine it with social interaction (or being afk) still doesn't mean there's no grind in EVE. You disproved nothing.
Anyway fyi: I have nothing against some grinding, I just think it's a ridiculous idea that there would be any mmorpg without it and advertising EVE as such is even far more unrealistic as saying you can play exciting 5,000 vs 5,000 fleet battles.
And in other games, what exactly is so grindy about that if you can combine a lot of activities with socializing (after all you usually have a lot of multiplayer PvE content in the average PvE so then it's not grind anymore?) and levelling to max level usually doesn't involve doing anything more than once.
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